Amy asks valid questions… read them… and now i respond, mostly to #1 and her closing comments… (Amy’s a good friend and she is responsible with her research/thought process/etc… so this is just an example of how friends can have differences of opinions, not an attack on her character …I’d suggest you read her post b/c I don’t want to rehash it… just respond).
A few passages concerning helping those in need:
Matthew 25:35-46
Luke 12:22-34
Luke 18, or any other “rich young ruler” passages…
and, just for kicks, a simple example of who else though “shared wealth” was a good idea: Acts 2:42-47
and a plethora of others throughout the new and old testament.
Now, it can and SHOULD be argued that our responsibility to those in need should be fulfilled by the Body / Church and not by our government. And I agree, but our churches and our American Body of Christ doesn’t do this.
So I say, why be infuriated with the state of our country based on the results of this election?!? First of all, the state of our country right now is largely in response to the dire situation we have found ourselves because of stupid decisions made over the last 6 years… And, heck yes, we should want more from our citizens… we should want people to be responsible… but that’s not what I want to focus on…
As Christ followers, above our Citizenship of America, we are Citizens of Christ. Take a look internally at our Family… The Family of Christ… Look at us!
Our churches spend more on themselves then they do on others… we mask what are clearly marketing ideas as ‘outreach’… we spend our time looking internally rather than externally… We don’t “go” anywhere, we do whatever we can to get the lost to “come” to us…
In other words, for most part, our American Church is failing to fulfill the needs that Jesus calls us to fill…
Lets take it a step further and get personal. The members of the Body are, for the most part, no better. We’re more concerned about how much we make, do we have the latest gadgets, does our car fairly represent our status, am I entertained, does the church feed me, is this convenient for me, how can i improve my way of life, and why the hell should i pay more taxes for people that won’t take responsibility?… after all God helps those who help themselves…
Wait a minute… where is that in the Bible? Oh yeah… Its not. Because if it were, we’d end up with Churches who only look internally, we’d end up with members who spend more in a month than many people spend in a year, and we’d end up so attached to our money and material possessions that we become frustrated when our taxes transfer from improving our way of life to improving the lives of those less fortunate…
This sounds all to familiar…
and, yeah, i’m part of the problem. But I’m also part of the solution because I recognize the problem and it drives and motivates my life more than politics and paychecks. I’ve got 25ish years of habit that I have to break, so its taking some time… but perhaps its time we stopped focusing on our rights as Americans and started focusing on our duty as Christ followers… a duty built on Love, not guilt or “works” … a duty birthed from within as Christ transforms who we are and what our focus is…
put me in any other country, under dictatorship, tyranny, or false democracy…. take away my free speech rights, tax my ass off, and throw me in jail… let me starve, let me bleed, and let me die… you can’t take away who I am because of the life saving power of Christ… and that is why I live and how I live…
So, bottom line… I want our country to improve because I live here… but I don’t care if i’m taxed more if it means that someone actually steps up and makes a difference in the lives of those who need it the most.
I was on welfare because of the choices I made… thank GOD that HE doesn’t just chalk it up to “well, learn some self-responsibility” and our country doesn’t take the approach of “God helps those who help themselves”
Did I deserve it? hell no. I couldn’t keep my dick in my pants when I was teenager… I knocked up someone when i was making literally 300 bucks a month… I didn’t deserve the help…
Do I deserve to be forgiven? Do I deserve grace? Do I deserve to spend this earthly life in relationship with the Creator? Or spending eternity in the presence of God Himself?
Soooooo. What were you trying to say again?
I’d only add that it’s been more than six years – more than sixty, probably, with traces back to the founding fathers and the own pants around the ankles. Having said that, people have made the best decisions they could for whatever reasons they’ve had, and we’ve lived with the consequences. Can we man up and make some choices that can lead in a better more positive less co-dependent direction? I hope so.
I’m like Rick. What is your main point? That govt assistance is awesome?
I think Amy’s comment about the mortgage fiasco was similar to some things I’ve thought of before too. I’ve bought two houses and had 3 mortgages on them. And I stayed far away from getting an ARM or balloon mortgage or interest only mortgage because those were nothing but a recipe for destruction. The only place the payments could adjust was UP. And it is boldly obvious.
But it seems some people wanted to get a house that was too big and too expensive for their funds, so they took a leap on one of those dangerous mortgages. Their payments exploded. And now they are wanting the govt to come bail them out. But myself, I bought a smaller house and tried to be frugal with my own funds, but now I might have to start paying for other people’s mortgages for bigger houses because they made bad financial decisions?
I know, I know…I’m being selfish.
And also, I’d guess that Amy would recognize that helping other’s is fine, but our govt is pretty multi-layered and has so many stopgaps and some might even say a bit of corruption that can anything be done effectively in terms of cost and time?
There are no easy answers…
I’m liking the direction these comments are going
I was scared when I opened my inbox and saw that I had comments..
I hate the saying “God helps those who helps themselves” grrr…
God grants grace, of course, but He also teaches through consequence. If He didn’t, many people wouldn’t even know Him. That’s my point, not that people should be punished for mistakes, but that consequence is the best possible way to change someone’s life.
Since we’re throwing out fake Bible quotes, where does it say “If you are failing as a church, don’t worry about it, the government can take your place” ? People are flawed, and unfortunately, people make up the church. I don’t want the government doing it, I want it to be up to Christ’s Body. Giving to those in need, should indeed be giving, and not redistrubution by a Government. (In the Acts verses you noted, I believe it was Christ’s Church voluntarily giving and sharing, not someone deciding what each person should give)
Blake is right, there are just no easy answers (other than, “Hey, I know this great guy named Jesus, let’s see what He says I should do” and then everybody follows suit.)
I’m not so mad at the election as much as the light that it sheds about the general state of our country.
No politician can or ever could be “the answer”. I think we all know that.
Re: Blake – My main point is pretty clear. It has nothing to do with Government Assistance. The system is flawed. My main point is why should we expect our government to work properly when the Body of Christ in America (and other countries i’m sure) doesn’t work properly? I’m more concerned about the state of the body of Christ than I am with the stae of this country.
Re: Blake: No one, not a single one of the politicians, not me, not you, WANT to just give taxes to people who are just looking for bigger and better houses… the system has loop-holes, just like most systems, so unfortunately people take advantage of us and our taxes… so, yes, the system needs repair, loop-holes should be closed, and we should focus on reforming the individuals rather than providing bandaides… but we can’t just say “no more of my taxes going to handouts!” because that means that people that truly need it can’t get it (in its current state)…
Re: Amy and Blake – Absolutely right. I said it in my original post. We should NOT rely on the government. But, as far as i’m concerned, my internal make-up as Christian gladly accepts any entity, government or otherwise, helping those in need. If we concentrated more on fixing the work of the Body of Christ we wouldn’t have to rely on our government. In my opinion, claiming we want to help those in need, but getting flustered at giving up our money to an entity that wants to help those in need is living dualistically.
Obviously the examples I gave are Christian examples (they came from the Bible). We say we don’t want the govt doing it, we’d rather do it ourselves, but the point is we’re not doing it (including myself). Whens the last time any of us spent our lunch hour feeding the homeless? When’s the last time we sold some of our possessions to help someone keep their lights on? When’s the last time we cancelled some of our monthly budget not because we had to, but because we wanted the extra cash to help those in need?
If the church started taking care of the broken, the govt wouldn’t have to. Thats the facts. So, until then, i’m all for a govt that wants to pick up the slack where we fail as Christians.
The truth is there are no CONVENIENT answers, which makes it extremely difficult. I’m not saying I’m great at all this, i’m just saying i’m sick of living a dualistic life where my rights as an American never cross paths with my internal make-up as a Christian.
What do you mean by this: “i’m just saying i’m sick of living a dualistic life where my rights as an American never cross paths with my internal make-up as a Christian.” – can you unpack that? maybe another post?
quite the debate that rolls on…this is good to wrestle with issues “where my rights as an American never cross paths with my internal make-up as a Christian.”
I would like to add that yes, we might support “a govt that wants to pick up the slack where we fail as Christians,” but that does not mean we are not often infuriated by the makeup of the policies created to do so. I think a distinction needs to be made between policies/methods of helping the poor and oppressed and creating a pot of money for those who “need” it. The govt tends to address a situation, not the cause of the situation. And yet we must also handle the issue of providing assistance to the greater so that some of the lesser might be helped. Hah!…and you thought I would take a side and not waffle
A consideration to throw out there in response to Jeremy’s call to consider when we last helped others: our sphere of influence. We cannot resolve all problems in all places. BUT, we must be diligent to attend to the needs in the situation God has placed us.
i don’t believe I’m living dualistically at all. In our specific family unit, we share what we have with those we can help, (as well as with our Church), I guess I’m either really naive, or just have more faith in people than you might give them credit for. Americans are some of the most generous people in the world. I love America, and Americans, I just don’t love how convoluded our system of government has become. I won’t use my money to help others the same way my government uses my money to help people, (just look at all the little added “expenditures” in almost each and every spending bill in washington, and it’s obvious) and since it is my money, Why can’t I choose? Throwing money at a problem is not an answer. The government issuing a mandate on giving, is that biblical? How does that fall in line with your faith?
Jesus’ call to love others and help, and give, doesn’t have to parallel but never cross being an American. Actually, giving and sacrifice is what being American is all about, but you just have to reflect on what it means to give, or share.
Small “motherly” example..
If your two kids both worked hard and earned 20 bucks, and Tristen went and spent it all at once, then she didn’t have the money she needed to buy something else, would you MAKE Mack give her half of HER money?
We can use imperfect examples all we want, but its not as simple as one-off situations… here, i’ll use one that fits my point:
Do you ALWAYS make your kids clean up EVERY mess they make? Or do you help them sometimes? If Kayleigh broke a glass in the kitchen, would she clean it up or would you?
Listen: I want a better system, too. I don’t think it’s “unchristian” to want our govt to be more responsible, and as jonathan said, address the cause rather than the situation.
I get frustrated at the negative phrases that are used to describe everyone on a government assited program: “Handouts,” “Spent it all at once,” “they don’t deserve it,” “cheating the system,”… grouping everyone together… and then, when we add the issue with illegal immigrants (which is similar, but not completely related), we start bordering on bigotry and racism with all this grouping.
Maybe I’m biased because i’ve been there through my irresponsibility… THREE people who didn’t work for the govt helped me financially… My mom, my dad, and Brian, who gave me a job that eventually got me off the programs. The church “did their part” by encouraging and offering advice… encouraging words and advice don’t keep the heat on or put gas in the car.
All i’m saying is that the problem isn’t rooted with our govt, its rooted in the American Body of Christ.
Yes, there are problems with the system, but it helps more than it hurts. I’m more frustrated about my taxes going to oil companies, overseas companies, and sports venues than I am about it going to the people who need the help.
I must throw my 2 cents in concerning a comment by Amy: “Americans are some of the most generous people in the world.”
I know that I make a generalized statement, and there surely are individuals/families who should not be included. Praise God if you and your community break this stereotype! Americans are NOT generous givers. We give out of our WEALTH mainly only to a NEED, in order to help people. This is good. However, many around the world give out of their POVERTY, many times simply in an effort to extend HOSPITALITY. This, I believe, is more along the lines of what marks a generous giver. It is easy to give out of abundance…it is so difficult to give when it is all you have.
Stereotypes and broad generalizations are harsh statements, sucking in those who are not a part of the group, unfortunately. I say this for the intent of provoking thought, hoping not to offend…
While sometimes it seems counter-intuitive to be proud of Mississippi, but even though we usually rank as one of the poorest states, we consistently rate #1 on the generosity index.
I have to say that I disagree wholeheartedly with Jonathan and maintain that Americans are very generous. I don’t believe that being a wealthy nation preclude’s us from being kind and generous. By using the word generous, I not only mean with monetary giving. This also means time, thought, prayer, encouragement, etc. I feel sad for those who haven’t seen or been a part of what the Body of Christ can do when put to action. Do we need to work on it? Absolutely. But, I guess I’ll just conclude by saying that I believe in what the creators of our country were trying to do in a sense of less government control. And perhaps, yes, there has been a culture shift in the idea of what giving means. It might be reflective of the fact that God is not glorified with welfare. There is no love behind it, and therefore, no true salvation.